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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
2509
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Posted - 2012.06.24 14:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
This argument is inevitably partisan. If you like goons (or are a goon) it seems to be making excuses is the order of the day, if you don't like the goons (or do like the idea that CCP provide some oversight for their game) then a certain degree of schadenfreude seems to be the doctor's orders. At this point though the discussion is getting boring. The game mechanics involved were clearly twisted in ways CCP don't approve of, and their developer on the spot has already stated they would be in their rights to punish on breach of the rules.
For my part, I think its creative abuse for sure. The market manipulation/exploit was cunning. I don't really like the lp-duping/double-counting thing though (that was obviously broken as all hell) - and the admission of keyboard macro abuse during the cash out is distasteful. But yeah, CCP is in a bind here.
If they punish the goons appropriately the goonswarm is going to go mental. Threadnaughts and summer of tears etc. Threats of negative PR -mass unsubs - and all that, hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec).
If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for.
Goons are already the CCP poster children for emergent gameplay (ie griefing hisec) and lauded in the gaming press and development conferences by CCP officials - and if they don't get an appropriate punishment for an exploit on this truly staggering scale then :shrug: I guess a lot of players may be considering their subscriptions anyway, Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attracive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance.
So this is probably the "great war" we've all been missing the last few years, and its not a clash of spaceships in 0.0, its not propaganda and plots laid at BBQ's in 2006, its not about the CSM and stacking the player council and its not about G19 macro's hammering out LP offer accepts for 28 hours straight,
Its pretty much a war for the soul of Eve Online and at the end of it we'll know whether its truly CCP the developer or Goons the the something awful forums mega-alliance, that calls the shots in this game universe. I think its probably the first time in the history of massively multiplayer online gaming that there has been a war of this scale and significance - and once again Eve Online is the forerunner of some truly emergent gameplay on levels of metagaming that would make other games crawl up in a corner and cry themselves to sleep.
Still lets all keep watching. After all, this time next year the goon economic cabal might be dictating terms to the president of Iceland!
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
2511
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:
Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard.
I imagine CCP will be able to reach their own conclusions (by analyzing how the macro's functioned over time) as to whether users were at the keyboard or not. As I said in the substantive post this is a partisan argument and there isn't likely to be much valid argumentation coming from people in the perpetrator's alliance.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
2511
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
Wisdom Divine wrote:This argument is not partisan.
The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.
A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale.
Sometimes you need to sit back and have a dispassonate look at the absurdity of some of these statements. CCP is a games company that run an MMO for profit. They are not some kind of Stanford Prison Experiment style academic study on the psychology of sandbox behaviour. This is a game first and foremost. If some of the players are cheating at the game they need to be stopped so the rest of the players can enjoy the game on the assumption that the game rules are preserved by the organizer.
If you guys really want to do the academic experimentation thing you should probably write up an abstract and pitch for funding.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
2511
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
[quote=Lord ZimYou said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse"..[/quote]
Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts.
Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me!
The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
2512
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse".. Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts. Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me! The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread. You mean the argument where you assumed
I mean precisely what I said. I don't need a goonswarm forum spin-doctor to reinterpret my posts. (and nor frankly does anyone else actually wanting an open discussion).
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
2512
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 16:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Aryth wrote:G19 macro you hold down. You have to pay attention due to FW fluctuations and such. This was also over WEEKS, not days. We were in motion within 8 hours of patch. it's perfectly legal as CCP themselves have stated, as it requires the user be at the keyboard. So uh, yes, I definitely "lost" that argument.
As I said, only CCP can be counted on to look at the pattern of macro use in this case and decide if it was consistant with giving the user an advantage in acquiring wealth in game. I'm hardly likely to count the words of the perpetrator of this exploit as somehow being sufficient to decide the whole of the story now am I?
I doesn't matter if Aryth was afk for 28 hours or 2 mins. If that macro was running to automate the collection of lp store offers that cost a normal player 2 clicks each then he was gaining an unfair advantage by macro. Its pretty astonishing you cannot see the problem with your argument - but then again - :goons:
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
2516
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 17:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Varesk wrote: They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. This right here ladies, gentlemen, and Jade Constantine, is the entire crux of the debacle. CCP was warned in the discussion of the Dev Blog, and in the testing threads, that this might happen. CCP could have come right out and stated, when it hit TQ, that there might be a potential exploit by gaming the LP rewards for kills, and anybody caught doing that would be punnished. People warned CCP, and it is now left cleaning up the masive mess, which could have been avoided with a few simple words.
Quoting an inaccurate quote doesn't really help your argument. Only people that can definitively say whether exploits and abuse happened are CCP. We have opinions on it certainly, but stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
2519
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 21:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Lord Zim wrote: You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse".. Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts. Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me! The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread. You are wrong. He used the keyboard, in the way CCP have already deemed to be OK. GM Karidor wrote:1) Keyboard macros a'la the G15 Logitech keyboard
This really depends on the exact useof those keyboard macros. General guideline: Automating gameplay: bad. Turning on all your hardeners with one key press: fine
The essence of the EULA is to prevent cheating. Cheating is defined currently by the EULA as automating gameplay to an extent that is not achievable by a human being. A player usinga macro to achieve (or sustain) automated gameplay will be at risk for warning or more severe actions. Linkage.
The quote you make doesn't in any way support your argument.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
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